Re: FN-FORUM: Ir35 legislation & opting out ?

date posted 30th October 2007 21:58

Well, the PCG seems to have quite a good record in defending againt the
IR lol I believe, they have still only lost 4 or 5 cases and won well
over a thousand :)

AND, IR35 wasn't about stopping tax avoidance. Running a legitimate
company, be it small or BP; the rules should be the same. IR35 was to
attack small businesses who they thought couldn't fight back. In
particular: IT contractors, to try and get rid of the competition for
large consultancies. One of whom, purely by co-incidence of course, had
a major share holder in on producing this legislation.

Pity for them, they picked on a highly literate, technically competent,
intelligent bunch of people who simply grouped up and can now defend
themselves quite well thank you :)

I often wonder how much IR35 legislation has actually COST the
government rather than brought in in extra revenue.

You're not Dawn Primerolo are you lol

Dawn Thomson wrote:
> I might be one of those IR people you hear about and watching you ! Best to
> heed the advice...take it or leave it...
>
> We can all be victims - IR, being a government organisation has infinite
> resources (funded by the people they are chasing) and will get their money,
> the temp/freelancer/contractor is not...
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dominic Raywood" [EMAIL REMOVED]
> To: [EMAIL REMOVED]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 10:14 PM
> Subject: Re: FN-FORUM: Ir35 legislation & opting out ?
>
>
>> Bit unnecessary isn't it Dawn? Unless I missed something, he was only
>> asking for advice - which is what the forum is about no?
>>
>> Let's be nice to each other and let the IR be the nasty ones :)
>>
>> Dawn Thomson wrote:
>>> Accountants ensure your employment status is clear and handle all of your
>>> tax issues - whether corporation, self-assessment, annual accounts, VAT,
>>> expense claims etc. and can act on your behalf with IR.
>>> Investigations can occur, especially where your employment status is
>>> suspect, and you are trying to diddle IR & HMRCE out of their money.
>>>
>>> If you want to check your contract for IR35 compliance, pass it onto an
>>> employment or contract lawyer and stop asking people on forums !
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Mike A" [EMAIL REMOVED]
>>> To: [EMAIL REMOVED]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 9:18 PM
>>> Subject: Re: FN-FORUM: Ir35 legislation & opting out ?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Dominic's feedback is well worth taking as the safe course.
>>>>
>>>> As for those that are in disagreement with my feedback: all I can say is
>>>> I've handled many tax tribunals for clients - it's all about the
>>>> evidence.
>>>> If the evidence is that a person sought and acted upon advice from the
>>>> Revenue it is hugely unlikely the tribunal will go against them,
>>>> especially
>>>> if supported by a lack of intention to defeat the tax system. If that is
>>>> the
>>>> end result it is also the basis of advice at the beginning. Dominic's
>>>> suggestion of acting via an accountant comes with the protection of
>>>> credibility and professional indemnity.
>>>>
>>>> Mike A.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Dominic Raywood" [EMAIL REMOVED]
>>>> To: [EMAIL REMOVED]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 8:59 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: FN-FORUM: Ir35 legislation & opting out ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Well guys; I may be able to offer some first hand experience here. I
>>>>> have
>>>>> a ltd company and mainly work with large companies either contracting
>>>>> direct, or via an agency (spit).
>>>>>
>>>>> I don;t know how much you spend running your company currently; but I
>>>>> pay
>>>>> an accountant Ł60 a month + vat and they do everything for me -
>>>>> payroll,
>>>>> vat returns, PAYE, annual returns, one personal tax return etc. I also
>>>>> made the rather excellent decision to join the Professional Contractors
>>>>> Group. I joined them when they started up and have not looked back. I
>>>>> pay them Ł200+vat per year.
>>>>>
>>>>> I recently had an IR35 investigation. The PCG dealt totally with the
>>>>> Inland Revenue; I didn't have to write, read or speak to them! All
>>>>> correspondence went directly between them. It ALL stemmed on contracts
>>>>> and nothing else - nothing! By ensuring I have IR35 friendly
>>>>> contracts,
>>>>> whether working via an agency, or direct; they all passed IR35. They
>>>>> gave
>>>>> me a clean bill of health after a very short investigation - which I
>>>>> believe is quite rare. All I have now to haggle about is expenses etc.
>>>>> The other big factor helping me I feel, was the minimal Web Design work
>>>>> I
>>>>> get - effectively meaning I have continuous multiple customers/clients.
>>>>> I
>>>>> also advertise by way of the website, Yellow Pages ads over the years
>>>>> etc.
>>>>> Basically, good contracts and avoiding ANY pointers to hidden
>>>>> employment
>>>>> e.g. turn down any free gym memberships, free parties. Try to use a
>>>>> personal email if they will let you. Don't fill in any holiday request
>>>>> forms - just tell them when you will be taking time off. Every client
>>>>> I
>>>>> have worked for understands about IR35 and they are all happy to help
>>>>> to a
>>>>> degree.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know how much you currently spend running your business, but my
>>>>> 1020+vat a year is it. I have had free banking since I started in
>>>>> 1996 -
>>>>> not one charge.
>>>>>
>>>>> Think of the costs as insurance. You'll probably be earning around
>>>>> 100k
>>>>> if you are contracting. 1% (tax deductible) is a small price. If you
>>>>> also register for VAT, that will return some of that Ł1020 anyway. I
>>>>> use
>>>>> the fixed price VAT scheme, where I charge 17.5%, but pay something
>>>>> like
>>>>> 13.5%? Basically, I can't claim VAT back when I spend, but I retain
>>>>> the
>>>>> 4% (or there abouts) on every invoice I raise. My accountant reckons I
>>>>> saved well over Ł1000 last year doing this - which has offset the
>>>>> "costs"
>>>>> of running my business. Add to that the ability to take a low salary
>>>>> and
>>>>> use dividends and the Employer's NI isn;t a big issue either.
>>>>>
>>>>> Most accountants will get you an off the shelf company for nothing in
>>>>> 24hrs.
>>>>>
>>>>> You will definitely pay more tax through an umbrella company - I
>>>>> guarantee
>>>>> it!
>>>>>
>>>>> In summary: If the work is lucrative enough, then the costs will be far
>>>>> out-weighed by the earnings. Join the PCG and make sure you use a
>>>>> contract recommended by them. Leave the contract discussions until
>>>>> after
>>>>> you have the contract offer. Then, hold out if the agency gets funny;
>>>>> I
>>>>> have found they will ALL move on contracts if they see their 10%-20%
>>>>> disappearing!
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, running a company is a little hassle, but I don;t think a limited
>>>>> comany need be that onerous to be honest; especially if your accountant
>>>>> does 95% of the work for you, like mine does.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you have any specific questions: bank, accountant etc. feel free to
>>>>> contact me directly.
>>>>>
>>>>> :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Alain Williams wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 06:46:29PM -0000, Phillip Healey wrote:
>>>>>>> I can't see how this is at all true. If it were, then it would
>>>>>>> effectively
>>>>>>> rule out any self-employed person from ever doing any work. With
>>>>>>> actually
>>>>>>> knowing 100% the facts, I would suggest that this is nothing more
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>> paranoid nonsense from the company you are working with. They
>>>>>>> obviously
>>>>>>> think that pushing you into using an umbrella company will rid them
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>> risks they?ve dreamt up regarding taxation etc.
>>>>>> If you do a runner and don't pay your tax then the agency could
>>>>>> be liable to pay your tax. If they contract a Ltd company
>>>>>> then they don't have the liability. It is a small risk, but
>>>>>> they won't take it. Most contract agencies are like this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Although I could be wrong, which would be very worrying.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>> Phill Healey
>>>>>>> Munklefish
>>>>>>> Po Box 70
>>>>>>> Manchester
>>>>>>> M34 3SQ
>>>>>>> T: 0161 408 4759
>>>>>>> ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: [EMAIL REMOVED] [EMAIL REMOVED] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>> steve
>>>>>>> wilson
>>>>>>> Sent: 30 October 2007 18:28
>>>>>>> To: FN-FORUM / [EMAIL REMOVED]
>>>>>>> Subject: FN-FORUM: Ir35 legislation & opting out ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi guys,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am currently doing some freelance work via people4business. I am
>>>>>>> having to go through a umbrella company because of new legislation
>>>>>>> regarding any unpaid tax will be the responsiblity of the contract
>>>>>>> agency. So they need to cover themselves by making their sellers go
>>>>>>> through a umbrella company. This way, I basically pay tax as any
>>>>>>> normal
>>>>>>> 9-5 person would.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The problem for me is, I have to pay admin costs to use the umbrella
>>>>>>> company, and also I would like to pay my tax at the end of the year
>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>> any normal freelancer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does anyone know anything of this legislation and if there is a way
>>>>>>> around it ? Is the agency im using giving me the correct information
>>>>>>> ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am told, the only way to get around this is to become a ltd
>>>>>>> company.
>>>>>>> But my earnings do not warrant this at the moment..it is a lot of
>>>>>>> paperwork and quite expensive.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, is the opting out clause in people4business relating to this
>>>>>>> ir35
>>>>>>> legislation ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any help or info is really appreciated.
>>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Dominic Raywood
>>>>> Rubicon Computer Services Limited
>>>>> W: http://rubiconcsl.com
>>>>> E: [EMAIL REMOVED]
>>>>> T: 08456 521 561 (+44 1823 698420)
>>>>> F: 08456 521 561
>>>>> M: 07050 204998 (+44 7811 252573)
>>>>> Skype: RubiconCSL
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Freelancers, contractors earn more with Prosperity4
>>>>> Call 0870 870 4414 or visit www.prosperity4.com
>>>>> and benefit from Inland Revenue approved expenses today.
>>>>>
>>>>> To advertise here: http://www.freelancers.net/advertising.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Freelancers, contractors earn more with Prosperity4
>>>> Call 0870 870 4414 or visit www.prosperity4.com
>>>> and benefit from Inland Revenue approved expenses today.
>>>>
>>>> To advertise here: http://www.freelancers.net/advertising.html
>>>>
>>>>
>> --
>> Dominic Raywood
>> Rubicon Computer Services Limited
>> W: http://rubiconcsl.com
>> E: [EMAIL REMOVED]
>> T: 08456 521 561 (+44 1823 698420)
>> F: 08456 521 561
>> M: 07050 204998 (+44 7811 252573)
>> Skype: RubiconCSL
>>
>> --
>> Freelancers, contractors earn more with Prosperity4
>> Call 0870 870 4414 or visit www.prosperity4.com
>> and benefit from Inland Revenue approved expenses today.
>>
>> To advertise here: http://www.freelancers.net/advertising.html
>>
>>

--
Dominic Raywood
Rubicon Computer Services Limited
W: http://rubiconcsl.com
E: [EMAIL REMOVED]
T: 08456 521 561 (+44 1823 698420)
F: 08456 521 561
M: 07050 204998 (+44 7811 252573)
Skype: RubiconCSL